Here is where we can start having spoiler-laden discussion for Order of the Phoenix. Man, what do you guys think of Petunia? I cannot WAIT to find out what’s up with her and Lily. I think big revelations about both of them are coming in the 7th book.
Petunia, Petunia, Petunia
Oh, how we wish to know about ya
You know more ’bout the world o’ magic
and you are still married to that prick
bravo.
I think it’s pretty obvious there is some kind of charm on the house that Harry is protected there.
I disagree. I think it’s explained later that Harry is protected while residing with his mother’s family, because of the protection her sacrifice afforded him. I don’t think Dumbledore had to do anything extra.
LA and Goathair…I don’t think you are necessarily saying something different. Just saying the same thing in two different ways.
I think a “charm” implies something that somebody casts. I think the protection from Lily’s sacrifice is an ancient magic that just happens.
But maybe that’s what Goathair meant.
I think it is a charm or some other sort of protection drawn upon by Dumbledore, that relates to the home itself (the home of his blood relatives). I think that it is different, though possibly related in a magical sense, than the protection Harry has from his mum dying to protect him.
I’m almost sure that Dumbledore explains to Harry about the protection afforded him at his Aunt’s house and I don’t think it’s anything extra besides the protection from Lily’s sacrifice.
But the protection from Lily covers Harry wherever he is, since it is internalized, while the other protection seems specific to him being at “home” with the Dursleys. Though, I could see how going home would “recharge” the protection, and some of Dumbledore’s comments support that.
Something to think about some more, I suppose, and I will have to dig through my books when I get home. Is it clear that Dumbledore knew about the Lily-skin-protection before the end of Sorcerer’s Stone?
Andrea - I seem to remember the DD explanation to Harry about Privet Drive being something along the lines of he (DD) having put powerful protections on it, but they were only in force if/when the Dursley’s took Harry into their home each year until he came of age at 17. So, I think you and Goathair are basically saying the same thing
Why would Petunia force Vernon to make Harry stay in the house if he (Harry) was the only one benefiting from the protection/charm/whatever is in place? There has to be something deeper than that going on. What I hope is happening here is that DD is suppressing Dudley’s magical abilities in exchange for a place for him to stay, and yes, I think there is also something about the house itself which further protects Harry. It’s possible that JKR will take the easy road and explain this protection away as something to do with Lily’s protection and just leave it at that.
Hey, it’s Pat! How you doin’ bud?
In all fairness, I agree with what you just said.
I believe it has been said earlier that JKR has stated none of the Dursleys are magic. I suppose one could make the argument that if Dudley’s magic is being suppressed that would qualify as “not magic” but I wouldn’t buy it.
I dont think dumbledore could suppress osomebody’s magical abilities. Then again, I am not sober, so that may prove to be and issue.
I think what we’ve heard, at least what is posted in JKR’s website (search for “shockingly indiscreet” on the page), is that Petunia is not a squib - more specifically that she has never and will never be able to perform magic. It doesn’t mention Dudley, so I think it’s still a valid.. well.. prediction, if nothing else.
Not to plug my own blog shamelessly, but I have gone much deeper into detail in a post I wrote in April on this very subject. The key is really whether or not Dudley could see the dementors
I don’t think that Dudley has any magical ability. There has never been any hint of it, and from what has happened in the books, a magical person always shows some magic before they’re 11. I think that DD put a charm on that house, which Harry has to go recharge every year, like Hail said. I’m pretty sure DD made comments to that affect on multiple occasions.
I agree that it would be strange and out of left field for Dudley to have magical abilities, but like Patrick said, what is the incentive for Petunia to keep Harry safe?
DD sent a HOWLER to Petunia–she is utterly afraid of magic/wizards and knows who DD is. She’d no sooner cross him than not look over her fence into her neighbor’s yard. Fear is a powerful thing on Privet Drive–look back to PS–P and V move Harry into Dudley’s 2nd room after the first letter addressed to Harry in his cupboard.
Dudley has no magic in him–again, go back to the “normality” in PS Ch. 1–I think that he hears all the victims of his bullying coming for him when the Dementors attack.
FWIW I think the one who has never done magic but will in DH is a squib–either Mrs. Figg (likely) or Filch (unlikely).
Slothrop, the idea of Dudley hearing the voices of his victims, that sounds pretty good.
But how could a squib just suddenly become magical?
Squibs are interesting cases–and it really gets to the question of magic in the ww. And therefore, what exactly, is magic? Why are wizards able to channel their “energy” through wands at all and do what they do? Also, why are some–Voldemort and Dumbledore, for instance, so much more powerful than the average witch or wizard? JKR has never really gone into the “physics” of magic in her world. It is simply a given; wizards “tap” into the magical field all around everyone while Muggles cannot. Squibs can sense magic–and see some of it. Filch, for instance, clearly sees the Castle as it truly is while Hermione tells us Muggles cannot.
JKR talks about magic (in interviews and on her website) as having a clear genetic connection–like the Force in Lucas’ GFFA, magic runs strong in families–the Potters are clearly a strongly magical family as are the Weasleys, etc. But it can’t be exclusively genetic either, because where does magical abilities in Hermione or Lily Evans come from? And both are/were very powerful witches–Hermione’s not just book smart–she (and Lily it seems from Slughorn) gets the theories and underlying practices at a deep level that HP, Ron, etc. don’t. In this sense, having LV and DD et al being sooo powerful makes sense–like athletes, artists, musicians, there are the good, the bad, and the incredibly gifted depending on genetic make-up (nature) and their exposure to teachers, mentors, and ideas (nurture).
Back to Squibs. My best guess is that they lack a particular gene or enzyme required for accessing magic? I have a friend whose body doesn’t make one of the five human immuno-antibodies (iirc there’s IGA, IGB, IBC …
and he would die if he doesn’t get regular injections of that antibody. Perhaps a squib is like that–they’re lacking that gene/marker/enzyme/whatever? So say magic’s a gene that doesn’t get “turned on” properly in a squib, perhaps under the most extreme situation, Mrs. Figg’s body could suddenly activate the magic gene, and she’s no longer a squib? Afterall, we’ve seen that in magical children, heightened emotion brings out the greatest, most obvious responses.
Thoughts?
Slothrop,
Really interesting post! Your point that Squibs are more magical than Muggles, even though they cannot do magic, struck me as key.
Being magical might be the result of multiple genes. Many human traits, like skin color, are not controlled by a single gene. They are the result of input from a number of genes. Being able to do magic is certainly a complex trait, so being controlled by several genes would not be surprising. In the case of Squibs, they have some but not all of the genes (the right term here is alleles, if you ever took biology, though gene duplication could also be a factor), so they express some traits, like seeing Hogwarts. There might be some threshold effect, so for example having 3 out of 5 genes is sufficient to be magical. Having more than the minimum could then explain some of the more powerful witches & wizards.
A few years back some geneticists had a letter in Nature discussing/speculating on the genetics of wizards and muggles. I will see if I have the PDF of it somewhere.
Both of you have quite interesting theories. From what i understand, Slothrop, you are saying that Squibs have very little magic ability, which allows them to see and feel magic. So if there was an extreme situation, it would cause their magic to become powerful enough to use for a very short time. Like a survival instinct?
Ivan–yes, that’s essentially what I’m saying. You’d think Filch’s anger with Fred and George or Harry when Mrs. Norris was petrified might be enough, but he hasn’t done it yet. With Arabella, perhaps being face to face with Voldemort might do it? Fight or flight, perhaps, is enough.
RedEft–alleles and multiple gene traits–yes, that’s the vocabulary that I was forgetting–it’s been since 1991 since I took biology. Hard to believe there was a time when I was able to rattle off those terms. But yes, clearly, like any ability, multiple genes involving multiple systems in the body must be involved in magic. I’d like to see that paper, if you can post it. I’d liken magic to musical, artistic, or athletic abilities–clearly, one must have spatial, muscular, ocular, and other intelligences to be a good, if amateur pianist, painter, golfer, whatever. But the geniuses like Mozart, Picasso, Woods, Voldemort, Dumbledore clearly have all that and more.
Good thread–cheers!
Well, turns out I don’t have the article on my home computer. It might be on my laptop, but that is at work. Below is the reference for the article, plus the response. If you have access to a University library with an online subscription (I don’t), you should be able to download them. I think the authors might have tried to explain magic as a single gene trait.
Jeffrey M. Craig, Renee Dow, and MaryAnne Aitken. 2005. “Harry Potter and the recessive allele”.
Nature, vol. 436, pp. 776 - 776 (10 Aug 2005)
Antony N. Dodd, Carlos T. Hotta, Michael J. Gardner. 2005. “Harry Potter and the prisoner of presumption.”
Nature, vol. 437, 318 - 318 (14 Sep 2005)
Also, I love the idea that in situations of extreme stress a Squib might be able to do magic. This made me think of Neville. He had to be dropped out a window before he expressed any magical ability. Though he clearly got the “magical plants” gene, maybe some of the other genes needed a kick start (stress hormones? endorphins?) before they started to do their thing.
First article: “Harry Potter and the Recessive Allele”
SIR — We are bombarded with news of genetic discoveries on an almost daily basis, but people without a formal knowledge of heredity and genetics can have difficulty in deciphering and applying this information. Education and debate across all ages would undoubtedly help, but how can we teach children these concepts?
We believe that successful lessons for younger children can be achieved using analogies of direct interest and relevance. Most children are familiar with J. K. Rowling’s stories about the young wizard Harry Potter (whose latest exploit, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, was published by Bloomsbury in July). They are set in a world like our own, but populated by a minority of people with supernatural powers (wizards and witches) and a majority of people without (muggles).
Wizards or witches can be of any race, and may be the offspring of a wizard and a witch, the offspring of two muggles (‘muggle-born’), or of mixed ancestry (‘half-blood’).
This suggests that wizarding ability is inherited in a mendelian fashion, with the wizard allele (W) being recessive to the muggle allele (M). According to this hypothesis, all wizards and witches therefore have two copies of the wizard allele (WW). Harry’s friends Ron Weasley and Neville Longbottom and his arch-enemy Draco Malfoy are ‘pure-blood’ wizards: WW with WW ancestors for generations back. Harry’s friend Hermione is a powerful muggle-born witch (WW with WM parents). Their classmate Seamus is a half-blood wizard, the son of a witch and a muggle (WW with one WW and one WM parent). Harry (WW with WW parents) is not considered a pure-blood, as his mother was muggle-born. There may even be examples of incomplete penetrance (Neville has poor wizarding skills) and possible mutations or questionable paternity: Filch, the caretaker, is a ‘squib’, someone born into a wizarding family but with no wizarding powers of their own.
We believe that, with the use of these examples, the concepts of mendelian genetics can be introduced to children as young as five, and then built on by gradually introducing specific terms such as ‘gene’ and ‘allele’, and relating these to chromosomes and DNA. At every stage, the children’s familiarity with the Harry Potter characters can be used as a hook to engage them in discussing concepts of heredity and genetics.
Jeffrey M. Craig*‡, Renee Dow†, MaryAnne Aitken†‡
*Chromosome Research, Murdoch Childrens Research Institute, Royal Childrens Hospital,
†Genetics Education, Murdoch Childrens Research Institute, Royal Childrens Hospital,
‡Department of Paediatrics, University of Melbourne, Royal Childrens Hospital,
Flemington Road, Parkville, Victoria 3052, Australia
I can’t seem to find the second article. The first is interesting.
Ok, I don’t know how I missed it last night, but here’s the second piece. Actually, they’re both letters. The second is a response to the first.
“Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Presumption”
SIR — Jeffrey Craig and colleagues, in
Correspondence (“Harry Potter and the recessive allele.” Nature. 436,776; 2005), recommend the use of analogies as tools for introducing young people to scientific concepts. Taking their example from J. K. Rowling’s stories about the young wizard
Harry Potter, they suggest that wizarding is a monogenic trait, with the wizard allele (W) recessive to the muggle allele (M). We believe the assumption that wizarding has a genetic basis to be deterministic and unsupported by available evidence.
Following Craig and colleagues’ analogy, Hermione, as a muggle-born witch, must have WM parents. However, as Rowling fans could point out, Hermione’s parents were muggle dentists who lack any family history of wizarding. It’s true, of course, that chance
may not have thrown up a witch or wizard for many generations, or that any who did have magical powers may have kept them secret to avoid a witch hunt.
What about Neville’s apparently poor wizarding skills? These cannot be explained by incomplete penetrance, as Craig and colleagues suggest. In incomplete penetrance, individuals either display the trait or not: they do not display an intermediate degree of the trait. Poor wizarding skills might be indicative of variable expressivity of an allele.
However, both variable expressivity and incomplete penetrance are associated with dominant alleles. If the wizarding allele were dominant, rather than recessive as suggested, wizarding children such as Hermione could not be born to non-wizarding parents.
Neville’s clumsiness may, perhaps, be an individual characteristic unrelated to his potential powers. However, it is not possible, from the evidence presented so far, to conclude that wizarding is a heritable trait.
Antony N. Dodd, Carlos T. Hotta, Michael J. Gardner
Department of Plant Sciences,
University of Cambridge, Downing Street,
Cambridge CB2 3EA, UK
NERDS!!!
/Ogre
Seriously, though, interesting stuff but way beyond my simple social science education.
Yup, nerd and proud of it!
if it helps…
The first article suggests that a single gene with two variants controls whether a person is magical. Everyone (muggles and wizards, and you, and me) has two copies of all their genes (one set each from mom and dad). So, if you have two copies of the Wizard variant (WW - shorthand notation that indicates the W variant for each of the 2 copies of the gene) you will be a wizard or witch. If you have only one copy of the Wizard variant (WM) or none (MM), you are a muggle. Witches & wizards can arise from Muggle parents if the parents are the WM variety and each parent passes on the W variant to their offspring.
The second article says that there isn’t enough evidence that being magical has a genetic basis. I don’t agree with that at all. The fact that magic runs in families the way it does, is strong evidence that there is a genetic component. I do think that a single gene (with only 2 variants) is probably not sufficient to account for all the variation in magical ability, or the occurrence of squibs and muggle-born magical people.
Thanks Slothrop for putting those articles up!
RedEft,
That’s what I was thinking, that the first article made the stronger case. Especially in light of the Black Family Tree/Blood Purity issues as well as what JKR has said herself about magic families. If W is recessive to M, that makes it similar to say, blue vs. brown eye color, no?
Also, I think a good bit of Neville’s incompetence is due to his grandmother and family’s desire that he replace his father–he didn’t even get his own wand until his sixth year (after Frank’s was broken in the Ministry in OotP). He is not an Auror, he’s something else–he might even end up as the Herbology professor after DH (assuming Sprout dies/retires/becomes Headmistress).
The model proposed in those two articles don’t account for squibs. If you were born to two parents who were both wizards carrying the homozygous recessive trait, then the only possible offspring would also be homozygous recessive and therefore magical.
Slothrop,
Yup, it is like brown/blue eye color*. In the article, the M allele/variant being dominant means it essentially overrules the W variant. You always get a Muggle when there is an M. Having 1 or 2 copies gives you the same amount of Muggleness, while you have to have 2 copies of the W to be magic.
Neville sure does start to blossum in OotP (pun intended). Given the positive encouragement from Harry in the DA he does very well. Plus, he got a real confidence boost from Moody/Crouch in GoF concerning his Herbology skills (not totally intended by Barty, I’m sure). I hadn’t been thinking of the life-long pressure and expectations from his family, though the meeting with his Grandmother in the hospital should have given me more of a clue about what things were like for him growing up.
*alas, I googled this and eye color is apparently more complex, but the general idea of the Brown trait being dominant to Blue works (if you don’t get bogged down in silly “facts”
Right you are Baba Oje! (I was writing my post when you posted)
Of course, there could be spontaneous mutations that would lead to Squibs. They couldn’t be mutating to the M variant because that wouldn’t account for the Squibs being more magical than Muggles. There are definitely degrees of magical ability, and the single gene with 2 variants behaving in a fairly straightforward manner does not explain enough.
I know this isn’t scientific, but I’ve always imagined there are 2 genes but neither is dominant/submissive to the other. I think if two wizards are MW and MW, then neither M nor W is dominant. It’s just a crap shoot. Their kids could turn out MM, MW or WW and if they are MM they’re a muggle, WW is a wizard and MW could go either way. So MW account for people like Hermione (wizard in no-magic family) and squibs.
Like, maybe Hermione’s dad is total Muggle, but maybe Hermione’s mom is MW and Hermione ended up MW but happened to be magic. Mrs. Figg, on the other hand, is MW but ended up Squib. And since JKR says that squibs are rare, obviously the wizard gene is USUALLY dominant, but not always.
If I had to take a guess, I would say there were multiples alleles, some of which were co-dominant or co-recessive to eachother and various combinations of them determine they ability to do magic. Kind of works like blood types.
hooray genetic biology!
Apart from the fact that the next time i wanted to see this was the MCAT, i think you all present good arguments. However, i disagree w/ LA. I think that if neither was dominant or recessive, then there would be a much larger amount of wizards. Because the MW population would be split fairly evenly down the middle. That would boost the amount of wizards because you’d have to assume that the MW combination would be much more prevalent then a pure WW or MM in the world. I would agree with the idea of multiple alleles to affect the magical ability of a person. More or less like height, or eye and skin color. That would allow of the random wizards that have extremely powerful magical ability to exists and also the weaker ones. It would be akin to a tall person having short parents. It can happen, because of the recessive alleles are there to make it happen, but the right combination of those alleles that control height don’t happen often if the odds are not in favor of that happening.
I don’t know if that made sense because i lost my direction a bit at the end there. sorry.
Ivan,
You have crystalized my thoughts perfectly.
To go back to LA’s comments at the opening of the thread: What are the questions we most want answered? (besides the obvious like what are the Horcruxes, will Hogwarts reopen, and how will Harry kill LV)
I want two: 1. Who are the Potters–what did Lily and James do to draw the ire of LV, and where did the family fortune come from?
2. Why did Dumbledore trust Snape–did SS make the Unbreakable Vow and therefore use the Avada curse on DD’s orders?
Yours?
Here’s my explanation for the differences if it helps…it’s magic.
Believe me, you do not want to see the MCAT.
@FA - Touché
@Goathair - I know, I know, but i have a good 6 months before i start completely losing my mind in preperation. So i’m still pretending its not that bad.
@Slothrop - Those are both good questions. I really want to find out about how much Petunia knows. What finally happens to Draco. and is Snape evil or not?
I’ll comment over here that upon first reading, I was floored that Draco was picked as a prefect because Dumbledore has to know what a little ass he is.
In light of Book 6, though, I think it’s more a case of Dumbledore knowing more about Malfoy than we (Harry) know about him. I think Draco will do something redeeming in Book 7 and I think Dumbledore could see that all along about him.
However, I do think the female Slytherin prefect would’ve been a perfect opportunity to introduce a Slytherin who isn’t “bad,” but instead she used Pansy Parkinson. Why? One of my pet peeves with the series is that we haven’t seen good Slytherins that are Harry’s age. They exist. JKR’s said on record that there are people associated with Death Eaters who come from other houses (Wormtail) and that there are good Slytherins, but we’ve only see Slughorn and Snape (who the jury is still out on, though not with me). I’d like to see some Harry/Ginny/Twins age wizards from Slytherin be good.
I agree with LA on both counts. I think that DD making Draco a prefect goes along the lines of him making Lupin a prefect all during James and Siruis’ time there, to try to control them by giving them a bit of power and responibility. I also agree that it would be good to see that there is good Slytherins, it would take it away from being such a Gryffindor vs. Slytherin thing as it seems to be some times.
Is it the heads of the houses that make the prefect decision or is it DD?
Well, when Ron gets the badge the kids all talk about how they were sure Dumbledore would pick Harry and then at the end of OOTP, Dumbledore tells him he didn’t pick Harry b/c he thought he had enough to worry about already. So I think it’s Dumbledore.
If it was Snape picking Slytherin’s, I wouldn’t be surprised at all by the choices.
i kinda figured the heads of houses made the decision with input by DD (or perhaps DD has final say but usually goes by their recommendations). but, if that’s what the book says…then i guess i have to go by that.
I agree with FA–the Heads probably make the first choice, DD has final say; Snape clearly picked Draco because of Lucius. Minerva probably suggested HP and Hermione, but DD made the final choice.
FWIW, in my snooty New England prep school, the dorm masters picked their proctors from the juniors and seniors
I was a day student and therefore below such honors.
Ivan, the MCAT that I took wasn’t *that* bad (I did reasonably well, but didn’t have the top grades to get into med school. In what is now not really surprising, I did best on the verbal/written part). I took Kaplan, but wouldn’t really recommended it. Best thing for me was simply practicing the exam–samples work best for my mind. Funnily enough, the GRE Subject Test in English Lit was a much more “Nastily Exhausting.” Everything from Beowulf to Don DeLillo might be on that thing–and the exam I got one time seemed to concentrate more on the Cavalier poets than anything else, the second, critical theory and Shakespeare had a bigger role.
I went to public school, so i had no idea what a prefect and all that business was until i read HP.
Slothrop, yeah thats the route im looking at the most, just practice tests until i can recite the questions in those books. I have the unfair advantage of being hispanic, so as a minority i don’t have to have the greatest scores to get into med school. I just have to do well.
Ivan: Don’t worry…at the rate the supreme court is going right now, you may be one of the last to have such an “unfair advantage”.
Awww man, I missed a genetics discussion. FWIW, I tend to agree with the allele theory.
Kaplan is a waste of money, but if you’re interested I’ll sell you my books. Good lucks.
FA, im not complaining, i’ll gladly take that unfair advantage while i can. It means the difference between needing a 30 and a 36. And i’ll let you know Goathair.
Ivan: I wholeheartedly encourage you to use the system to your greatest advantage. That’s what we’re supposed to do. Right?
If its there, you may as well use it.
Back to your regularly scheduled programing: One of the question i forgot, is how Lupin is going to take care of wormtail, because you know it has to be him.
I’m guessing magic.
Yeah…probably right.
Lupin taking out Wormtail? Maybe. I think that Wormtail would best be served living out his miserable existence in Azkaban, having helped Harry defeat the Dark Lord because of the life debt he owes HP. He has always existed under the wings of other, more powerful wizards. Let him see life without such protections as James, Sirius, Remus, and LV have had to offer.
And, he can be in Azkaban with the other surviving Death Eaters who will revile him for betraying the Dark Lord. I think that’s the best punishment. I’m with Harry in PoA, death is too good for Pettigrew.
Question: Is there more we don’t know about the night Lily and James died?
Other questions I have overlap those above (re: Lily & James, Petunia, Snape). I’m sure I will come up with more.
RedEft,
There’s got to be a lot more we don’t know about Godric’s Hollow. Here’s where I think the DD portrait will come in. He should be able to remember why LV wanted to kill James and Lily. Hagrid and Lupin will also probably know a good deal. Also, it was Hallowe’en, right? that is an important night in the pagan calender, which might mean something.
What’s so interesting to me is that James and Lily were Head Boy, Head Girl, Lily was in the Slug Club, and they were in the Order–they were powerful. Were they Unspeakables? That might connect to the Locked Room and to Harry’s blood protection that DD was gleaming about at the end of GoF.
Unspeakables, that throws something else into the equation that wasn’t considered. Wouldn’t someone have mentioned that they worked in the Ministry though?
I think JKR’s said we’ll find out James and Lily’s occupations in book 7.
But if they were “Unspeakables,” isn’t like a CIA/NSA kind of thing? No one can know what you do. dun dun dun!
I would not be surprised if Dumbledore’s portrait was as tight-lipped as DD himself. Hopefully there will be some more pieces of information he (finally!) decides to tell Harry.
On Harry’s blood, and DD’s gleam in GoF, I have always thought that LV having Harry’s blood in him would turn out to be a weakness or vulnerability that would lead to his (LV’s) undoing. That is why DD had a look of triumph. He knows it is a way to get at LV, and LV probably will have overlooked it (or not considered it important) as he did with Lily’s sacrifice. It may still tie to the Locked Room too.
They’re not pagan though are they? There’s not a lot of talk of religion or anything, but the do celebrate the major Christian holidays.
they* do
No, the WW doesn’t seem to have its own religion. The magic is just part of who they are. The celebration of Christian holidays may have more to do with the fact that that is the school schedule in England (i’m assuming, i really wouldn’t know).
I thought the blood is what established the connection that was forged in book 5 an 6.
I think JKR has purposely avoided the religion stuff, having them celebrate Christian holidays and just left it at that.
LV specifically wanted Harry’s blood because he thought it would give him an advantage over Harry - Now LV could touch him. And the blood enhanced the connection between Harry and LV that existed through the scar, and LV eventually figured this out and used it to his advantage too. I think the blood connection will ultimately bite LV on the butt.
I’ve wanted to discuss the religion in these books for a while, but never saw a real opportunity to do so until now.
I am just curious about the thoughts people have on this. I am not a religious person, so I may not get it. But, why is there such a big deal about the HP books? The characters, as mentioned above, all seem to celebrate the christian holidays. other than that there isn’t much religion involved. (maybe that’s the issue.)
is the hubbub just because witches and magic seemed to be connected to the occult in some manner?
I think there are some on the fringes of Christianity who don’t like it because of the magic, wizards, witches, etc. The Bible condemns dark magic, but I think it’s mostly in some obscure passages; I think those who are afraid of HP are afraid their children will believe it and start cults and whatnot. Not really any different than Chronicles of Narnia, Lord of the Rings, King Arthur, or Star Wars though.
no offense meant…but what a bunch of fucking nutters.
I agree completely. My mom works with a woman who is such a bible-beater that she is adament that the HP books are about devil worship and the occult, but guess what? She hasn’t read any of them. She also thinks the LotR books are fantastic, because she maintains that they are allegories for the Bible. But guess what? She’s never read them either.
Personally, I think you can find a lot of parallels between Harry and Jesus and I don’t know what all the crazy Christians’ problems are. They are good books that have valuable lessons in them, not Do-it-Yourself Devil Worshipping books.
It’s definitely that some extreme Christians feel that by opening their minds to “magic,” people can be lured to that. There was a big documentary about it a couple of years ago.
As for LotR, my dad (former minister) took a class about the relationship between them and the Bible and on the first day of class he said “Tolkien says he didn’t write the books as a Christian allegory, so what’s the point of this class?” He got a D.
I think it is true that many of the people who oppose the HP books on religious grounds have not read them. They perceive any depiction of magic/witchcraft as being explicitly anti-Christian, and so are opposed to the books. It is too bad since I think the books are strongly moral and promote values that religious sorts would get behind if they read them.
I totally agree, Red. And I think JKR has avoided any explicitly religious anything on purpose.
Goathair…that’s a great story about your dad.
Why did your dad stay in the class?
That story reminds me of when I took Evolution in college. One class, maybe 3/4 of the way through the semester, a gal got involved in a back and forth with the professor over something she didn’t understand. The exchange ended with her saying “I haven’t believed anything you’ve said all semester.”
Good question. Probably because he loves LotR, but I’m not sure.
I’m catholic, and i have no problem with the books. Neither does my mom and she has a Sunday School teacher. The members of our church actually got mad once because this couple sent their little kid up to the altar to read a anti-harry potter statement, which accused it of being an anti-catholic propaganda. The members were angry because they felt that the people had obviously not read it, and it would make it seem to new ppl that we were all crazies.
i thought the bible people lurved narnia
Bible people do love Narnia.
Yeah, they do.
As an atheist, I am probably pre-disposed to find the “HP leads kids to the devil” crowd a bunch of nutters, but I find their inability to open the books about the most damning thing to their views. But if they don’t want their kids to read HP, fine. I go bat-shit crazy when they say “get HP out of the public library.” I am pretty okay with restricted sections, checking IDs, etc. for some materials in public libraries, but I also feel that locking ideas/words/concepts away from everyone often leads to worse results.
And worrying about kids worshiping the devil? Having grown up in a town with 17 Century witch hysteria in its history (not Salem, but near it), I know that worrying about the devil has led to far greater evil. I’m sorry, the world’s a dangerous place, inventing Satan/Lucifer, while great for literature, was a bad thing. People don’t need a demon to do bad things. People are capable of great evil–to me, ascribing their actions to “the devil” gets the person off the hook.
While, obviously being a catholic, i disagree w/ you on the idea of Satan not existing. I fully agree with you that when ppl do bad shit, it was them, not the Devil or whatever it may actually be.
I also agree on the idea that banning a book gets anyone anything. The idea of having a banned book, makes ppl want to read it more because of the curiosity to see what is so bad about it.
Ivan,
Salman Rushdie might wish more people read controversial books. The Satanic Verses is a great book–hilarious and dark and wonderful–yet no one, least of all people who want to kill Rushdie, reads it. But make no mistake, they will kill him if they can. To me, that’s evil–the devil, if you will.
I do think it’s very interesting that JKR uses the Christian holidays (mainly as chronological markers) with seemingly only the secular traditions of Christmas in particular, in the books. Easter doesn’t seem to have any religious meaning in the books, and no one is mentioned going to a Mass or Service–even your young Irishman Seamus. In all, it seems the holidays in the ww are more secular than religious, which reflects on contemporary Britain and Europe, imho.
Last one for tonight: Some clips from the film OotP are up here:
http://movies.msn.com/movies/movie.aspx?m=547474&mp=t
I would agree that it is more of a reflection of England and Europe right now more than anything. Although the Irish take their religion pretty seriously. I just don’t think that it would have been pertinent to the plot in any way. The only mention of Christmas is in the secular capacity of gift giving and what have you. I prefer it that way, i have no need to know the religion of the characters, it has no bearing on the book and it would be superfluous.
As for the clips, they look amazing, but i can already tell that they changed some stuff. Or maybe its just not the way i remembered it.
Ivan,
I have a feeling that Umbridge is going to be great in this film–there will be substantial changes as it is a looooong book, and a short film (I heard it’s the shortest film yet).
I saw it was about 2:20 in length.
Yeah, i really like how Umbridge has been portrayed in what i have seen. She has that horrible “hem-hem” down pat. The problem is that this is my favorite book, so i am going to be extra critical.
Does anybody else think Hermione should wind up with one of the twins instead of Ron? They’re far more intelligent and fun which I think would be good for her.
Maybe Doug–she has been impressed by their magic of late. Ron’s her man, though, I think. She’s been holding out for him since at least GoF. The whole Lavender issue in HBP was all set up to drive Ron into her waiting arms–plus, they bicker like an old married couple.
Fred and George also seem too flighty for Hermione. Ron, for all his faults, is loyal and thirsts for greater glory than what the twins want. Hermione likes Ron’s adventurous side too as it allows her to put down her books, let down her hair, and get a little messy. Look at how quickly she moved to brew the polyjuice in CoS or to set up the DA in OotP.
So the prophecy says that Voldemort or Harry will die at the hands of each other. Does that mean they’re going to go out in a bare knuckle brawl? Cause that would be awesome.
Who did Luna and Neville see die that allows them to see the thestrals? Does anybody think they look more like raptors in the movie than what they were expecting?
Oh, right, Luna saw her mom. What about Neville?
In “The Eye of the Snake,” Neville tells Hagrid he saw his grandfather die. I assume that was his paternal grandfather, Frank’s father.
I like the look in the films so far–they definitely have the “horsey-ness” JKR describes, but have a bit of a raptor look too–they do feed on raw meat after all, they’ve got to look like either predators or carrion feeders–either way, jaws for ripping and tearing flesh would seem to be in order.
I didn’t imagine them like that, they’re a bit skinnier then i thought they would be. But they do look cool as hell, they’re supposed to be kind of creepy.
Doug,
The prophecy says: “either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives.”
So, could the hand LV gave Wormtail be interpreted to be the hand of HP or LV since the reincarnated LV has HP’s blood in him and LV is the one who created the hand for Wormtail?
Some big news on DH’s ending: Last word is not “scar.” JKR says it was, but no longer. She didn’t say what it was, but did note that she drank half a bottle of champagne and howled when finishing the book. See mugglenet.com
I am getting mighty worried about Hermione, Hagrid, and McGonnagal. I do however, see Harry and Ginny rebuilding the Potter house in Godrick’s Hollow as their home. Wow, I am such a dork.
Slothrop:
Who was it that got the alleged copy of DH and said the last word was death not scar? Hmmm…
O yeah, someone got an alleged copy. Wow…it would be harder then ever not to read it.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if McGonnagal or Hagrid die, i would be surprised if Hermione does, though. Because, i think that if she dies, then Ron will die.
You mean you’re starting to believe this guy?
I believe all communications from the Ultimate Warrior. Don’t you? Plus, Will Leitch took that picture–it’s got to be true!
But yeah Ivan, I hear you–it would be such a blow to lose Hermione, but JKR is ruthless. Of course, Leia and Han survive Return of the Jedi when either/both could’ve died and Luke’s story would have been even more tragic and triumphant when he gets Anakin to turn on Sidious. (sorry for the Star Wars geek out) Also, the myths that JKR is playing off of have lots of lost friends– in Gilgamesh, the best friend Enkidu is killed by the Bull of Heaven, in , Odysseus loses his whole crew, Arthur “loses” Lancelot’s virtue, among others I can’t recall at the moment. For that reason, I am less certain the dead are from the older generation–Dumbledore and Sirius have been taken–I think therefore Voldemort will strike at Harry’s friends/closest relations. Perhaps Petunia or Dudley, but more likely the Weasleys, Neville, Hermione, and Luna.
Fan’s Attic,
I don’t know the source of the “scar is the last word” story, but JKR never denied it until just recently and essentially confirmed that it had been the last word for years. It always seemed like an awkward stopping point for a seven-volume series that will have consumed a writer’s life–and a generation of readers’. But then I am critic, not a writer.
I read that JKR wrote the last chapter of book seven very early on in the development of the series, mostly for herself to know there was an endpoint to the story she envisioned. It is an epilogue of sorts saying what happens to all the characters. I think she said in interviews that she did some re-writing of this chapter, but she did have the last chapter sitting around for years.
What are the odds it turns into a giant Greek tragedy?
It will be a huge twist if Harry turns out to have killed his father and slept with his mother.
What are the odds it turns into a giant Greek orgy?
A little bukakke magic never hurt anybody.
A little bukakke magic never hurt anybody.
wands lead to unattractive bruising
my wand leads to unattractive bruising. Fixed.
Its like DS w/ Harry Potter instead of the friday wrap up.
Everybody put their bukkake and their wands away. Ewwwww.
The part in Phoenix where Hermione says that Dumbledore trusts Snape and if we can’t trust Dumbledore, we can’t trust anything is one of the other reasons I’m convinced that Snape is good. It would really go against a lot of what we know about Dumbledore to have him turn out to be wrong, I think.
I’m thinking Snape is good, the only thing that is holding me back is that somewhere it said that you had to really mean it when you used one of the unforgivable curses in order for it to work
Yeah, fake Moody says that in Azkaban and Bellatrix says it at the end of Phoenix.
I can’t explain that one, but perhaps for a gifted enough witch/wizard you can do any of them without really needing the driving hatred behind them? I don’t know.
One theory holds that Snape’s loathing comes from making the Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore and having to kill DD. I.e., Snape loathes himself and DD for making him do this, and that powers the AK curse.
I don’t happen to buy this one, but it’s a good explination for Snape being good. It would allows Snape to be good and not break either of his Vows to DD and Mrs. Malfoy.
I don’t know. That is reaching a bit i believe. Granted, i’ve always thought Snape was bad. She says repeatedly that DD’s largest weakness was the fact that once he trusted someone, he trusted them blindly. Thats why i think Snape is evil.
Ivan,
I agree–I think it’s a big stretch. I think that it’s all a part of the Death Eater culture–all are trying to be #2 to Voldemort. All are conniving and back-stabbing. It like the Sith in Star Wars (or Sauruman and Sauron in LotR) to me. The Sith once were many, but killed each other all the time because the Sith Masters (like Sauron) don’t share power. Vader is an apprentice until he turns from the Dark Side in Jedi.
Likewise, as DD says, all the DEs are trying to be LV’s favored, closest ally, true confidant, but he has none. Snape has spied on DD and killed him for that spot, I believe. But I won’t be surprised if Emerson and the other folks at Mugglenet and Leaky who think Snape killed DD on DD’s orders are right.
BTW, I just want to say that I love, love, love what Ralph Fiennes is doing with LV. The shots of the duel in the Ministry have me very excited for OotP–I hope they do a midnight show here (alas, no IMAX).
I agree, Ralph Fiennes is so good at representing pure evil that it is a bit creepy. Same thing as Red Dragon, he just does it so well.
I was rereading the passage in GoF, when LV comes back. To see if i could take anything from his monologue.
He says :
“And here we ahve six missing Death Eathers…three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return…he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever…he will be killed, of course…and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service.”
So, the cowardly one is Karkaroff and the faithful servant is Moody Jr. That leaves Snape as the one he believed had left him forever. Does that mean that Snape came back to him after he rose again? Or did Snape already communicate with LV when he was in baby (or what ever that was) form and LV is attempting not to blow his cover. Snape also says that LV is one of the best Leglimens ever. So how could he lie to him about being a double agent for DD? I know that Snape is an accomplished Occlumens, but i doubt he is good enough to lie to LV about something that big. Alright, thats all for now.
Snape tells Bellatrix in the beginning of HBP that he went back to Voldemort a couple hours after being called “on Dumbledore’s orders.” It’s possible that LV was saying that his most faithful servant at Hogwart’s is Snape. In that case Crouch would be the one that had “left,” meaning that LV knew he would be killed. That’s a bit of a stretch though.
Harry not opening the package to find the mirror was one of the dumbest things he’s ever done. It could have easily saved the trip to the ministry of magic and would have made his desired communications sooo much easier.
In “Spinner’s End” Snape tells Bellatrix that LV thought he was gone forever, but he was wrong. I think LV didn’t know Snape was still with him (or whatever, I think Snape is good) until he returned after the couple hour delay.
Harry finding that mirror is one of several heart-breaking moments at the end of GoF.
sorry, I meant end of OotP. argh.
I think that harry waks into a room with voldemort and then the last page is blank a la the sopranos.
but seriously i think ron dies,
The NY Times today has a set of endings for Harry Potter by 4 different writers plus one artist’s piece.
NY Times on Harry Potter
While I’m at it, this was on Slate a couple weeks back.
blast!
Slate HP
Yeah, i don’t even want to read that, i don’t want to see anything coming.
It’s tempting but I don’t want to know. Even though at least 3 of the 4 will be wrong, I’d rather not have any preconceptions.
I may have asked this before, but why didn’t Lupin recognize Scabbers to be Pettigrew earlier in PoA? I know he thought he was dead, but Sirius was easily able to recognize him in the newspaper (not even real life).
Doug,
Did Lupin ever see Scabbers before the end of PoA?
This goes back to our previous discussions about the number of students at Hogwarts. I found it on Mugglenet and it says:
“Hogwarts has about a thousand students. (True, that number doesn’t seem right, but J.K.R. said so, and she’s the boss.)”
It isn’t attributed but it’s interesting.
He should have seen Scabbers on the train to Hogwarts since he shared a cabin with the trio. I know he was sleeping most of the time, but he did wake up. I’m not sure if there were any other times.
Snape explains all the questions to Bellatrix about his “loyalty” at the beginning of Half-Blood Prince.
I’m so pumped for Phoenix to come out! The Bad One and I are going to a midnight showing on Tuesday night.
I think that Wormtail would have recognized Lupin before Lupin had a chance to recognize him. So when Wormtail saw Lupin in the cabin Wormtail could have just hid in a pocket or something. Remember, Hermione had Crookshanks at that time, so he could have just been hiding from Crookshanks in a pocket or bag.
Also, 1000 students makes no sense at all. I thought we came to the conclusion of about 300 max? 10 per year, 7 years and 4 houses = 280.
Ivan,
Some people agreed that was a reasonable number, but I think 1000 seems reasonable. About 150 students each year, about 35 per house. That would make the Quidditch teams much more difficult to make and why it is such a big deal to be on the squad, at least in my mind.
The IMAX theatre is showing Order of the Phoenix every 3 hours starting at midnight here. You’ve gotta be pretty hardcore to go at 3 or 6 AM. Alas, I have to work so I won’t be seeing it until 6:30 PM.
Yeah, but as we see in OotP, there is a huge dearth of (good) quidditch players in the Gryffindor house.
I think 1000 students sounds totally reasonable IF she had said something. She makes it sound like there are only 10 Gryffindors in Harry’s year. I’d just like to hear that there are more.
Yeah, I wish the numbers were attributed to someplace, but as it is it’s just on a page put up by the editors on mugglenet.
http://www.mugglenet.com/books/general_facts.shtml
Rowling gave the number 1000 in an interview.
“Question: How many students attend Hogwarts, and how many students per year per house?
J.K. Rowling responds: There are about a thousand students at Hogwarts.”
Interview transcript on Accio Quote site. The quote is maybe 3/4 down the page (Warning this site is addictive).
I don’t think there has to be the same number of kids in each year, or in each house, or in each year in a house. The Sorting Hat isn’t charged with making the houses equal size.
On the Lupin/Sirius/Scabbers thing–Sirius knew Peter was alive and would be looking for a wizarding family to connect with whereas Remus knew Peter to be dead. Therefore, Lupin wasn’t looking for Scabbers/Peter while Sirius was. Rats are rats when you’re not looking for one that should have been dead for 12 years.
Hermione is right when she calls Harry out for having a hero complex–when he sees Sirius being tortured, he is so sure he can save the day, he doesn’t even consider looking for the mirror–and don’t forget, Kreacher plays his part here too, lying to Harry about Sirius being gone from 12 Grimmauld Place.
I agree that the Hogwarts student body numbers are confusing. 1000 feels right, especially given the size of the Castle and how big the Ministry seems to be (is it me, or does it seem strange that the only wizarding occupations seem to be the Ministry in some fashion, artist/musician/craftsman, Hogwarts professor, or entrepreneur–own a bar, a shop, etc. Seems limited). However, there seem to be very few students/year/house that we see in the books. The 5 boys in Gryffindor in Harry’s year doesn’t seem that atypical. Which does seem to make Quidditch selection a lot less dramatic.
Oh, that NYTimes thing is bollocks. Only Daniel Lindhoff from “Lost” has a semi-serious take. The rest are jokes. Bad ones. Makes you appreciate JKR’s humor all the more.
I hate myself for being a spoiler junkie, but there you go.
I believe it’s Damon Lindelof. And the fact he wrote one of the pieces is enticing. I may have to read it
now.
They can work for Gringott’s as well. Bill or Charlie Weasley do. Pr