Alright gang from DeadOn. The Harry Potter posts will continue to be put up over at DeadOn, but for each book there will be a place to discuss where you can feel free to have spoilers. Here will be our arena for Sorcerer’s Stone Chamber of Secrets Prisoner of Azkaban. Have at it.
My personal topics of discussion include: Lily and Harry’s green eyes (and why does Daniel Radcliff not wear green contacts in the movies?) and what we will find out about the Dursleys’ horrible behavior in book 7. I personally think we won’t hear anything redeeming about Vernon or Dudley, but I think Petunia will turn out alright.
Yes! Thanks Andrea – I now have an unhealthy obsession with getting the books re-read for the 5th or 6th time and I can talk spoilers too!
Yeah, I’ve re-read the entire series so many times I’ve lost count. I’d have to guess I’ve read books 1-4 (which is how many were out when I discovered HP) about 9 or 10 times by now.
Same here, i think I was introduced to them right after PoA came out, so I’ve had some time to pore over them.
Plus, since you’re in South Bend, what else are you going to do, go to a Silverhawks game?
Petunia is going to be very important, I’m thinking.
Did anyone read Slothrop’s post? Mother of Jesus that is long.
I always viewed the Dursleys as similar to the wicked stepmother and stepsisters in the Cinderella story with the males and females switching roles. We read one version of it in a college class where the real father was alive and oppressed her (physically and sexually). Thus, I’ve always felt Vernon and Dudley were mean for the sake of being mean, but Aunt Petunia might be the worst of them all. I know she protects him at times and seems not as bad, but she could have ulterior motives.
That’s interesting, Doug. But I still think she’ll turn out to surprise us with a flash of goodness.
Doug, did you read it? Not being snarky, just curious–it was for a book of critical essays, and 20 p. is the standard length.
My biggest questions for DH is what are the last Horcruxes (I refuse to accept until JKR says it that Harry is one) naturally, what’s behind the veil in the Ministry (I’d love to see Harry go into the afterlife ala Odysseus, Orpheus, etc.), and hearing what Dumbledore’s portrait has to say to Harry.
I think that Petunia is good and she knows more about the Wizarding World then she lets on. I also believe what she knows and is willing to do for Harry is going to play a big part in the last book.
As for DH and Horcruxes, i really don’t think Harry is one. More then anything because you have to kill someone before you do it and because Voldemort wouldn’t have had time to make Harry into a Horocrux between him killing Lilly and him attacking Harry. From what i’ve taken from the books, its a very complicated bit of magic and it can’t just be done all quick like.
The Dumbledore portrait is a big thing with me. I’ve always wondered how much of their conciseness is left in those portraits. Is it the person and everything they ever knew and remembered? Because in that case it would be a lot of help. Or is it just the deceased’s overall personality. That will be interesting to find out.
That’s all i have for now.
O yes, i’m half way through the Slothrop’s post, its really good and i recommend it.
I haven’t read it yet, but I will when I get home from work.
Doesn’t the prophecy say that Harry and Voldemort can’t live without each other or something to that effect? If so, that would imply that he is a horcrux; conversely, why would Voldemort want to keep trying to kill Harry (until book 6) if he needs him alive? Was it an accident and did he not know until book 6? I really have no idea; you guys are far more knowledgeable about it than me.
It says that one can’t live while the other one is also alive. So one has to die essentially. I think that would actually exclude the idea of Harry being a Horocrux from the get go.
Ahh, you’re right then. I think. Or it could mean that Harry is currently not fully alive because he is possessed by Voldemort’s half-dead spirit as a Horcrux. Similarly, Voldemort is not really alive with Harry possessing part of him. That’s getting kind of out there and not likely though.
I agree with Ivan, I don’t think Harry is a Horcrux. I think Harry is looking for the locket of Slytherin’s, the cup of Hufflepuff’s, something of Ravenclaw’s (probably that we’ve seen before, maybe the tiara in the Room of Requirement where he hides his HBP potions book?) and I think the big surprise will be something of Gryffindor’s that is not the sword.
I was just grasping at straws trying to create some sort of discussion; I don’t necessarily think it’ll happen.
Is the Sorting Hat Gryffindor’s? I know it’s still in Dumbledore’s possession, and he is the one wizard Voldemort fears, but wouldn’t that innately make it a good place to hide something important? Could Voldemort have had access to it long enough back in the day to create a Horcrux?
The thing is that Dumbledore has been in possession of everything of Gryffindor’s for years. And he would know if Voldemort made it a Horcrux. That’s why the object of Gryffindor’s that is a horcrux is going to be the hardest one to find out, i believe. And you forgot the last Horcrux, which is probably Nagini the snake. That is another reason i don’t think it’s Harry. Because if its Nagini, then that would be seven and he wouldn’t have needed Harry.
And how are you posting from the future? It just put my new post behind your old one…
peutunia i agree will be very important,
i think one horcrux will be in the chamber of secrets, it just makes snese from voldemort.
i think in gof there are a bunch of throwaway lines that are clues. like ror is in gof, so are a bunch of things.
Ivan, I feel like Nagini is a red herring. Rowling has said that there are 6 horcruxes, with the 7th piece being Voldemort himself. Two have been destroyed: diary and ring, which leaves 4. I think it will turn out to be one relic from each Founder, instead of 3 founders and the snake. The Gryffindor relic will be the twist/surprise.
Oh yeah, that makes sense. I’d have to agree with you then. But i think that at some point someone is going to have to kill Nagini before they get to Voldemort. And, yes, the Gryffindor relic will probably be the kicker. I’m so excited, the book needs to come out already!
Well, it’s just a prediction, but to me it would be very boring if the 4 remaining Horcruxes are exactly what Dumbledore told Harry they would be and the only mystery is what is Ravenclaw’s relic.
Along with Harry = Horcrux, a popular theory is that he’s a descendent of Gryffindor and therefore is the Gryffindor relic, but I don’t buy that.
Yes, the book needs to freakin’ come out already.
It’s too bad we all can’t get together for when the Order of the Phoenix movie comes out, that’d be fun.
Yeah, i think that Harry being a Horcrux would be a cop out regardless. It’s a bit too obvious…
Yeah it would be cool for the movie, but alas. The cool thing is that there is an IMAX in Ft. Lauderdale and i live in Miami, so its close enough for me to drive over to watch the last 20 mins in 3D. Which will be 1000 kinds of amazing.
I agree with Andrea’s list of Horcruxes–I am very skeptical about the idea that Voldemort would use living things … even Nagini. Dumbledore calls him a magpie–he uses trophies for his victories. Nagini only represents him–Riddle/Voldemort thinks much bigger. I think that his desire for one item from each founder means that he is greater than the sum of their works–that’s why he wants to control Hogwarts–my opinion here–he wants to be Ozymandias–King of Kings/Wizard of Wizards. Therefore his edifices/Horcruxes must be larger than a snake or a boy–remember that until Voldemort marked Harry, he was ordinary.
Ivan, book 2 is important to book 6 because it’s our first introduction to a Horcrux. We get to see how Voldemort left a piece of himself in the diary and that Harry destroys it way before we know that’s what it’ll come down to in the end.
Swamped today, so I haven’t had a chance to comment.
LA – I never saw the bit about why #2 was important to #6, but when you read it, it’s so freaking clear – I just love that!
I like the symmetry of the Horcruxes coming from each House, but what about Petunia as a possibility (if we’re considering Nagini, why not go all-out? It answers the question of why she is important, at least – of course, it then begs the whole question of does a person realize they are a horcrux, and it probably eliminates her ability to be nice to Harry and I think I just talked myself out of this)
Finally – a OOP premier party would have been cool! How did I not know that it is in IMAX and 3D? I may just have to make the drive downtown and check it out!
Yeah, we have an IMAX with 3D ending here too, I need to buy my ticket.
IMAX in SB? Where?
Grand Rapids, not SB.
We have the original IMAX Dome here, but they normally don’t show the big blockbuster movies. A new IMAX just opened for Spiderman 3 a couple miles from my work, so I’m guessing they’ll be showing OOTP.
thoughts about snape.
he is good because in book five, harry tells him they have snuffles and tehn snape tells the order, there is no reason for this if he is evil
Yeah, thats what i figured, that it was about the Horcrux. If we use that experience of the Horcrux for the future ones, then the horcrux will be able to fight back on their own, if they’re put in the right hands. That makes the whole deal much more interesting if you ask me. Its not just about destroying them, but beating them and then destroying them.
And an OOP party would be awesome if we weren’t all strewn about the country. But the movies are always disappointing to me, they leave too much out. I know that they can’t have everything because they would be 5 or 6 hours long, but it still sucks that they don’t.
About Snape: I don’t know. I think he just didn’t want to give up his position yet, but once he had Dumbledore on the ropes, then it was time to fly his true colors. It will be interesting to find out if the only reason that Dumbledore trusted him was the business about the prophecy, because if that was it, then that was pretty fucking weak.
I’m firmly ensconced in the Snape is Good camp.
Does that have anything to do with your love of him?
I don’t see how he would be. He killed Dumbledore. How are we going to get around that? Is he going to reveal his goodness at the end? Or do you think that he is going to realize the error of his ways and take a curse for Harry? How do you get around the unbreakable vow he made with Narcissa? I think doing what Voldemort wants is included in the requirements for that vow.
I just don’t think he will.
There is a popular theory out there that Dumbledore had told Snape to never lose his place in Voldemort’s camp as their spy, so when Narcissa came to him with the vow, he had no choice but to follow through. Dumbledore knew about it and in the conversation in the woods that Hagrid overhears, is insisting that Snape follow through.
On the tower, the wording is deliberately vague on Rowling’s part. Snape looks at Dumbledore with disgust b/c he has to kill him. Dumbledore “pleads” with Snape not to have his life spared, but for Snape to follow through. After Dumbledore is dead, Snape keeps the other Death Eaters from killing Harry under the guise of “saving” Harry for Voldemort to kill. I think we are going to find out about some kind of friendship between Lily and Snape, which accounts for his horror over having caused her death and that Snape killed Dumbledore upon Dumbledore’s orders.
That’s all well and good, but that is a lot of circumstantial stuff if you ask me. Granted the Snape is bad camp, is just as circumstantial. Now that you mentioned that Lily and Snape friendship, what if Snape was in love with Lily? Wouldn’t that explain his hatred for James (other then the whole bullying business). And to poke a whole in that, if Harry has Lily’s eyes, how could Snape hate him, wouldn’t it constantly remind him of her?
Well, I also happen to really hope that it does turn out Snape was in love with Lily, but I feel like Rowling’s said that was not the case. I imagine more they were just good friends or something, but I’m rooting for the unrequited love angle.
It would be interesting, if nothing else.
Ah, the Snape issue rears its ugly, hook-nosed, greasy head. I just don’t know where to stand as I see merits in both arguments. I am in some ways just as confused as the Death Eaters–if Snape is loyal to Voldemort, why hasn’t he killed Harry at any point–if he’s loyal to Dumbledore, why would he kill Dumbledore when Harry will need him most? (I am equally confused by the Dumbledore is dead and gone forever, Dumbledore is a kind of human phoenix and will be back).
On the whole, I guess I am in the Snape is unredeemably bad camp. Using the ultimate Unforgivable Curse? Even if he helps defeat Voldemort in the end, Snape must answer for that. I do think, whether conscious or not, Snape will help Harry win–I like the Mugglenet.com theory that Snape (and certainly Wormtail) will somehow distract and wound Voldemort when he is most vulnerable allowing Harry to finish him off. Both may sacrifice themselves to Voldemort in that effort. I don’t think the Trio will be broken up, though I think one or more Weasleys will not survive (Percy certainly, and perhaps Molly).
I don’t think Snape is unredeemable, but I do agree he has to answer for what he did. I think it is HIGHLY unlikely Snape survives the final showdown. I think he’ll sacrifice himself for Harry and everyone will realizes Dumbledore was right to trust Snape all along and it’ll be Andrea Cries #253.
im thinking wormtail sacrifices himself for harry at somepoint, and that snape kills bellatrix.
If he does turn around and become good, i have to agree that that is the way he would probably go. I also can see him taking out Bellatrix, him or Lupin/Tonks. Him because he obviously hates her. Lupin/Tonks as revenge for Sirius.
One of the Weasley’s is going to die, i agree. I don’t think its Ron, because I think that there is a much better chance of Harry dying then Hermione or Ron. It can’t be Ginny, because frankly it would kill me if Harry has to see Ginny die, for the love of allt hat is good and holy in the world, he’s seen too many people he loves die.
I don’t think there is any chance in hell of Wormtail showing any sort of dignity to sacrifice himself for Harry. He’ll only turn on Voldemort if he sees someone more powerful, and Harry will never represnt that type of power. Because he wouldn’t want it, then him not being able to have it.
I wouldn’t put it past one of the professors at Hogwarts dying. My money would be on Hagrid, he wouldn’t think of it at all before giving his life for Harry.
I don’t see Wormtail helping Harry, he’s too chickenshit.
My Death Money is on: Hagrid, Snape, one of the Weasleys. Rowling has said that now instead of only one character dying in the final book, two are. She’s also said the one character got a reprieve and the two new deaths are ones she didn’t intend on, so that’s interesting to me. I also assume the “two” doesn’t include Voldemort.
But does character mean anyone? Or does it mean someone important. Because character can mean Moody or Slughorn, who aren´t as important as if Snape or Hagrid or Fred dying.
Rowling probably left that deliberately vague. But I would imagine it means fairly major characters.
Thats the newly released cover art for the deluxe version of Deathly Hallows. Norbert anyone? So much for a throwaway.
Sorry, i dont know basic html.
Thanks for the link Ivan!
That’s some image–pure speculation here, but my immediate thought is that Harry has come for Ron and Hermione–they’re wearing robes, he is not. It could be Norbert, but damn if I know why he’d let them ride him–he bit Ron after all.
Oh, and back to Wormtail. Remember what Dumbledore says in PoA–that essentially Peter owes Harry a life debt for saving him in the Shack. That’s got to got to come back into play. He gave his hand to Voldemort in the amazing rebirth scene–maybe my favorite scene in GoF (and really, if you think about it, the only scene of real consequence in that whole book–everything in GoF leads to that moment)–I truly think he’ll give up his life for Harry in DH much like Vader does for Luke in RotJ.
Possibly. I can see where you’re coming around about wormtail.
Also, now that you mention it, how about Harry picking up Hermione and Ron after a second battle at Hogwarts. And in the case against Norbert, don’t Hungarian Hortails have spikes on their tails? Or was that just in the movie?
RE: Norbert and Horntails–yes, that’s not a Horntail in that illustration–GrandPre doesn’t mess that up, I don’t think. the tail is described in PS and GoF–Harry’s arm/shoulder get ripped in book and film
So we know its not Norbert. I still think they’re running from Hogwarts.
Affirmed. (deadspin joke)
I suppose it could be Godric’s Hollow they’re flying over, but my guess is Hogsmeade.
Ivan,
I think we’re both confusing Norbert with a Horntail. He’s an Norwegian Ridgeback. Check this out: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/dragons.html
So it could be Norbert. Although the horns don’t look bronze, but i think that can be overlooked.
I am enjoying the discussion very much and de-lurking to ask a question about something LadyAndrea posted above:
“I think we are going to find out about some kind of friendship between Lily and Snape, which accounts for his horror over having caused her death and that Snape killed Dumbledore upon Dumbledore’s orders.”
How did Snape cause Lily’s death? I’ve read the books (and will probably re-read in part because of these great posts) and I’ve been chewing on this trying to figure it out. Is he feeling responsible because as an insider with Voldemort, he could have warned Lily and James about Voldy’s intentions? Something more?
oh, garbage. never mind. I got it.
Also, you can put me down on the “Snape is good” side.
Sweet, I love Snape is good supporters. Welcome to the discussion. And yeah, I’m sure you realized that Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy, which sent him after Lily and James.
i too am in the snape is good camp.
what about fawkes what role are we seeing there, i think he has to play a role but not sure what?
Just for the record, count me in the “I change my mind about Snape almost daily” camp. I promise to decide before the book is released, but I keep making arguments (good ones, at least as far as the little man in my head is concerned) for both sides of the argument
I’m kind of with you Hail, but i lean more towards bad. But i definatly see the reasoning behind the Snape is good camp.
Snape’s fate is certainly going to be a center-point for DH; he is at least a double-agent, perhaps a triple-agent, perhaps believes that he can destroy HP and LV and rule the wizarding world. He’s like a Sith in that respect. I am generally in the Snape’s evil, going to try to kill HP for LV but be thwarted by Wormtail, all of which allows HP to destroy LV. But then I think otherwise …
I would not be surprised, but a little disappointed if Lily plays a role in Snape’s fate–she’s been dangling out there for so long–her eyes/Harry’s eyes, her Charm work, etc.–and I am a little over it. Snape doing all that he has done–betraying LV/betraying DD for a schoolboy crush? That’s weak. I can see holding on to the grudges against Sirius and James–that will carry on because it’s about magical abilities, and Snape’s very vain about that–he defers to no one but maybe LV. But Lily’s dead, it’s not like Snape can win her now.
RE Fawkes–Harry says that at DD’s funeral that he doesn’t expect to see him again; on the one hand, that makes sense–JKR has said that dead is dead, no reincarnations–therefore, while we’ll see DD’s portrait and may hear him talk, he’s not coming back and neither is Fawkes. However, her choice of the Phoenix is too loaded. Phoenix’s regenerate; and LV and HP have Fawkes as part of their connections. So, again, I am torn.
I don’t think the Snape/Lily thing, if it is even where Rowling goes, will be a “school boy crush.” I think it’ll be much more important than that.
re: Hadrid’s wand comments (from the other thread)
I would have liked Hagrid’s wand to be restored when he is released from Azkaban and (presumably) vindicated, but maybe once a wand is broken it cannot be put back together. Or the Ministry can’t quite unbend themselves enough to restore Hagrid’s wand even though they had to let him out of Azkaban.
Two things – I would have liked Hagrid to be able to take courses. He finished 2 1/2 years (or so) – would have like for him to get to pull a Dangerfield and go back to school.
As for Snape – I think as of 3:22 EST, I’m in the Snape is Evil camp. I fully plan on changing by 3:32.
I keep coming back to Petunia – I think she is going to have some role vis-a-vis Snape.
Well, Petunia may be bound by her promise to Dumbledore concerning taking Harry in (from HBP? don’t have the book here to dig out the reference). It would be interesting if she does something further out of the goodness of her heart.
RedEft, I’m almost banking on Petunia doing just that.
Am I the only one who thinks Petunia might be magical?
I don’t know. Because magic has a way of coming through, unless she has a crazy amount of self control. Especially if you consider how angry she gets at Harry.
How about a Snape and Petunia thread, how random would that be.
Leroy,
You’re not the only one. I’ve been thinking about that as I have been re-reading OotP. As we all know, she knows more about magic than she is letting on. Perhaps she was magical and gave it up for some reason. love, maybe? we’ve never heard of people willingly abdicating their magical powers, but maybe it does happen. who knows.
Snape and Petunia is something else that could be out there, although I doubt it.
I think the Snape connection has to be with Lily because he has mentioned Harry’s eyes before and how they are like Lily’s in other books. We also know that Petunia’s eyes are “so unlike her sister’s” (OotP p. 38). However, now that I write this it could be some unrequited love of Snape by Petunia that drove her to leave the magical world.
Snape and Petunia? He’s soooo not her type. Go back to the first chapter of PS–she’s as anti-magic as Vernon. She despised her sister–jealous, sure–but hates, hates, hates the wizarding world. She practically spits when she talks about Lily–the actress really gets it in the film of PS/SS–and James. She is mortally afraid of Dumbledore as evidenced by her reaction to his howler in OotP; there’s also no evidence that Lily ever brought anyone besides James home from Hogwarts, and we know that Petunia didn’t go to their wedding and never saw Harry until Halloween 1991.
No way, no Snape/Petunia stuff.
Also, not to disappoint anybody, but I think Rowling’s said that none of the Dursleys are magic.
Key word in that sentence, LA, is Dursley’s. Petunia is an Evans, technically.
And yes, i was just throwing that out there. I also highly doubt that there is any sort of Snape-Petunia stuff. Snape and Lily, however is coming, somehow.
Just re-read the intro to this post. Good point about the eyes and Radcliff in the movies. If they turn into a major plot point in DH as opposed to something that just gets repeatedly mentioned, I’m going to be chapped (particularly with Columbus and his otherwise-by-rote versions of the first two books)
Well, the movies have been chock-full of “your mother’s eyes” things, so I guess we’re to assume that the color is irrelevant? Because Rowling has had a lot of influence on the movies and if the color green were the important factor, I think she would’ve made Radcliff wear contacts.
But how could it not be, its mentioned all the time. It seems to be quite important that he has his mother’s eyes. Also, according to Mugglenet.com, Rowling confirmed that the fact that he has his mother’s eyes is going to be very important. On this http://mugglenet.com/books/futurebooks/book7/confirmed.shtml page.
Ivan: Perhaps the fact that he has his mother’s eyes and not so much the color is the important matter. As LA said, the movies do reference him having his mother’s eyes.
Meh, that would be really nit picky of them. Because if someone tells you that so and so and this persons eyes, you expect them to be talking about the color as well as the shape or whatever else could be similar.
The eye thing bothers me a little–does the woman who played Lily in the film have green eyes? All my DVDs are packed up right now, so I can’t check.
Anyway, on to the Elves’ magic. They don’t need wands to focus their power, as human do; nor do they speak spells–something Harry’s learning to do in HBP. they’re powers are largely physical in nature–moving things, cleaning, cooking, etc. Is that because of their station, or limits of their power? I am curious on this point. Also, the Goblins have powers–the vault for the Philosopher’s Stone could only be opened by a goblin, e.g., and the Centaurs have some powers too–mainly divination. All are in the pool at the Ministry in OotP. The SPEW effort is noble, I think, if misguided. Dobby loves helping HP, Winky clearly loses it when she is sacked, and Kreacker is a wreck without Sirius’ mother.
Ivan, that’s what I was saying. It’s going to be really important, but DR clearly has blue eyes. And yet, Rowling has a lot of control over the movies. She’s changed things that she knew would turn out to be wrong or important (moving a graveyard out of the Hogwarts set in Prisoner of Azkaban).
ok, on to the importance of CoS. The Horcruxes are obviously important–I wonder how much of that was planned in advance or if it fit later with what she wanted to do with Riddle in Goblet and HBP. I would guess that not only did she have the Horcruxes already mapped out, but the specifics of Riddle saying “I left my 16 year old self behind” in the diary is interesting–17 being the coming of age in the ww–last year of youth for LV who is consumed with defeating death. Slughorn has a lot to answer for, and it clearly weighs upon his mind. Despite that, he is my favorite Slytherin.
The sword is also important, I think. It looks like it may be on the children’s cover to Deathly Hallows, and it wouldn’t surprise me if Harry used it again against LV. I would think that decapitating LV would finish him off and Harry wouldn’t have to use an Unforgivable Curse. How Harry would be able to do it is something else … I may be going off on a Heroes tangent here, but the sword is such an ancient weapon, is connected to the Founders whom LV desires to supplant, and is a Muggle weapon–another irony if LV is killed not by magic but by a Muggle weapon.
Slothrop: There’s a great little essay on mugglenet.com about who RAB is that talks a great deal about Kreacher that you might want to check out.
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-ladytory01.shtml
I’m not sure I buy all of it but it does have some good points.
They can do force spells, that would explain what happened to Malfoy. However the fact that they can do unspoken spells, just means that Dobby learned how to do it. I believe that for younger elves, they probably also would have to learn to do the spell. Also, in GoF all the wizards think that it is Winky that casts the Dark Mark at the Quidditch World Cup. Would that mean that they are able to cast other spells? Because the Dark Mark wouldn’t fall under a physical spell. And, i know that in the end it turns out to be Barty Crouch Jr. but for the majority of the book they think that it is Winky.
If Voldemort made the first Horcrux, who did he kill?
The Fan’s Attic–I like that essay–it makes sense re the need to have Kreacher there and having Kreacher follow orders no matter what. Thanks for the link.
Ivan–Moaning Myrtle via the Basilisk.
Slothrop: the one thing that gets me about that essay is that Sirius Black’s mother was alive after Regulus was killed. Wouldn’t that mean Kreacher would have told her the secret(s) (if the essay is correct of course)? And, wouldn’t that have been something she would have told to others given her loud, wailing picture in the Black house? Also, wasn’t Kreacher her house-elf and not Regulus’? How do the familial relations affect a house-elf’s loyalties?
As you can see, I still have a lot of questions.
I see what you’re saying–Mother Black would’ve blasted him off the Family tree if she knew he betrayed LV. Do we know she outlived Regulus? I am not sure if Kreacher had to tell her everything–K would be loyal to R too–he and his “clan?” of elves are loyal to the House of Black–he’s loyal to Sirius and Harry, the owners of the House.
I’m pretty sure it says in OotP that Mother Black died while Sirius was in Azkaban, which would be after Regulus died. I’ll have to double check that.
My thought on Kreacher and house-elves is that it is loyal to one person in the house and to the clan as well but isn’t there a spell that binds them to a person. I wouldn’t think they could be bound to more than one person at a time.
Also, it seems the Sirius and Harry kind of inherit Kreacher and his loyalty, which may debunk my theory above unless there is a sort of wizard table of consanguinity (how heirs inherit an estate) that transports my alleged binding spell for house-elves.
Harry did inherit Kreacher and his loyalty. Remember when Dumbledore wants to make sure that Grimmauld Place belongs to Harry, so he has carry give Kreacher a command?
I honestly can’t remember when Mama Black died.
Dobby says that House Elves are bound to serve a family until death or given clothes–because Harry’s named Sirius’ heir, he must obey Harry.
I think they’re bound to a House. The actual house. Because how else would Kreacher pass to Harry? Unless House Elves are considered property, and can be inherited as such.
Re: Petunia….J.K. Rowling’s website says that Petunia has never performed magic and never will be able to do so. (under the Rumours section).
Put me in the Snape is good side, if only b/c I don’t think Dumbledore would have been so fooled by someone. If Dumbledore trusts him, then he must have good intentions.
Saldawg-
Good find. I’m still not sure if Snape is good. I’m not sure where I read it but there was a theory that DD may have had Snape do one of those unbreakable spells that bound him to one of the potters to prove/force him to side with DD/HP after he wanted to leave LV. or something to that effect.
there is just too much ambiguity with snape right now in my mind.
Saldawg, I thought I’d heard that Rowling confirmed that.
I don’t think Dumbledore would do an unbreakable vow. I think he’d see it as a sign that he doesn’t trust someone. I think he’d just take Snape at his word.
As of 3:49 PM EST, I’m in the Snape is bad camp. I get this feeling (right now) that, contrary to what Saldawg suggests as far as DD not being fooled, that perhaps DD is too trusting (as HP feels) and Snape does pull one over on him.
And now that I’ve written that, I’m back to not believing it and having no idea. I need to re-read HBP again (and again)
HL – I’m the same way. And I definitely need to re-read the last few books.
My question is about the relationships of the group. That mugglenet site says that Viktor Krum is coming back in Book 7 yet also says there are no more Quidditch matches. Which can only leave him coming to see Hermione. Ron clearly likes Hermione as well, how do we see that ending? Also, Harry & Ginny….Ginny isn’t of age, so I can’t see her leaving Hogwarts. She’ll no doubt be his main link back to the school. But she also has history with LV/Riddle so I wonder if that will play a part?
Saldawg, I’ve been thinking about Ginny since re-reading CoS this week–she gets all mad at HP in OotP for not asking her about being possessed by LV, and she’s becoming quite a formidable witch. I think we can easily forget how strong Molly and Arthur’s clan is–two Head Boys (and maybe a third if Ron gets it) three Prefects, Ginny will probably be one, Quidditch captain, loads of OWLs and NEWTs even from Fred and George (who are quite powerful, if tricksters). Molly herself is a pillar of strength and ingenuity–her clock seems to be her own invention and DD is impressed by it. So I think Ginny’s going to be Harry’s greater fighting ally than Hermione and Ron (who will be more strategic, I think). Neville’s also going to have to take out Bellatrix or die trying.
great points about Ginny (both Saldawg and Slothrop). I would love to see her have a key/strong role in DH.
My question about the end of CoS is about the Gryffindor sword. Dumbledore says to Harry “Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat.” I have seen this line interpreted to mean that Harry is the descendent/heir of Godric Gryffindor (not merely a member of Gryffindor house) and I am curious about people’s thoughts on this.
RedEft, I hear you, but I think rather than “heir,” which LV and his maternal grandfather and uncle (nice boys, just misunderstood) worry so much about, the sword simply meant that HP truly belonged among the brave and noble lions of Gryffindor. If anything, DD is the “heir” of GG in that he accepted everyone for education at Hogwarts and champions the little guys–look at his compassion for Neville at the end of year feast in PS. Worrying about bloodlines and purity and “heirs” strikes me as a very Slytherin/LV/Malfoy viewpoint.
I agree about Ginny and her power, I see her playing a big part in Book 7. I didn’t know Krum was coming back for book 7, that’s interesting. He could just be fighting for the good guys, though, it doesn’t have to be romantic. Or maybe that’s just the final push Ron needs to declare his love for Hermione.
Also, I don’t think Harry is the heir of Gryffindor.
I don’t think Harry is the heir of Gryffindor, either. I’d have to agree with Slothrop’s explanation of it, because DD would never care if you are a direct heir of anything, that goes against everything he stood for. I agree with the idea of him being a heir in terms of personality and bravery and such, those things would matter much more to DD then any blood relation.
I would also love for Ginny to come back and have a big part in DH. One of my favorite parts from HBP is when HP come back from the detention and they had just won the Quidditch Cup and he kisses Ginny, i was like “helllllll yes!” So yeah, it would be great if she came back with a big part.
Also, i think Slothrop is on to something that Neville has to kill or defeat Beatrix.
And lastly, I heard about Krum also, i think that he is going to come back to fight and maybe to finally push Ron over the hump with Hermione. But even if Krum comes back I don’t see Hermione going to him, because shes quite obviously really likes Ron.
Never thought about Neville and Beatrix, but I agree – he has to kill her.
If Krum and Hermoine somehow end up together, I have a feeling the JKR is going to have to go into hiding to avoid the legions of very angry fans. Krum coming back does make thing interesting though. With him around, you have the “best Seeker in the World” along with HP, who is (in the words of Judge Smails) no slouch himself. Might we be in for a bit of flying action, even without Quidditch?
thanks all for the input on my question. I was thinking late last night (these recaps and discussions are making me think a lot more about the books) that IF Harry were to defeat Voldy because he is the actual descendent of Gryffindor it would go against the “your choices make who you are” theme from CoS (and elsewhere).
Most definetly, one of the best lines/speeches in the whole series is DD at the end of GoF, wheere he tells them that “there will be times where you will have to make the choice between what is right, and what is easy…” If he was the Heir, it wouldn’t be a choice it would be a requirement, if you remove the choice, then the overall theme is gone.
Also, Hail, I see where you’re coming from with the possibility of some wicked flying in DH. Maybe they’ll use the brooms to fight people, awesome.
going back to my comments on deadon. i see GoF as the end of the second act of this story. the intrigue and danger has really stepped up with LV’s return. i could almost see DD’s speech beginning the third act. the next two books, OotP and HBP are the third acts and DH is obviously the final act where we get all the resolution.
JKR has said before that she looks at this as one big story and i think it really does play out well in that manner.
I see it as books 1 and 2 seem like independent stories (which they almost are), and then 3-7 are really interweaved. Fantastic.
Why I think PoA is one of the two best (with HBP): No Voldemort. While he remains a threat, LV is nowhere to be found in PoA. What JKR does with Sirius is such a great red herring and having Scabbers be the real villian of the book is so great. After that, all bets were off, plot-wise. She pulls it off beautifully–and I think Cuaron really F’ed up the whole Animagus/Marauders issue. My wife loves the movies but hasn’t read the books (don’t get me started), and she has never really understood what’s going on with the Map and the Shack.
Meanwhile back at the ranch (that’s for you, LA), the lack of direct threats from LV hovers over all five of the other books–and Harry directly confronts him in each. In PoA, he confronts his past–especially the murder of his parents–and his fears. Once he realizes who Prongs is and what it means to produce such an enormous and powerful Patronus, he knows how strong he really is. And that’s something no other book in the series has. Even when he becomes the DADA teacher in OotP, he’s not testing himself as much.
LV is at times comical. He even monologues in CoS and GoF like a comic book villain. I’ve never bought the whole “don’t say his name” nonsense; while he is clearly ferocious and feral, much of his villainy is done in his name or for him–Barty Crouch, Jr., Wormtail, the Death Eaters in general. That said, for me, Ralph Finnes is scary in the films–far more so than what JKR describes in the books. Of course, he so was terrifying in Schindler’s List that his Amon Goeth is part of his LV for me.
Thoughts?
As for goathair’s comment about what RJ stands for over on deadon…does it really mean anything other than Lupin’s name? i don’t see how it is a spoiler.
Slothrop – every time I think of a villain monologuing, I picture Syndrome in Incredibles.
I definitely like the dread that develops in PoA when you start to think that this isn’t just a “Harry beats Volemort” story, but that there are other dangers going on that might be just as bad.
And gothair, I’m on board with you regarding the first 2. After you read PoA (and even more so as you go through GoF/OotP/HBP) you realize how “beginner” those first two are compared to the richer story that she writes from Book 3 onward.
Remus refers to the Romulus and Remus myth about the founding of Rome by twins raised by a she-wolf. To me, that was the final clue nailing Lupin’s secret. Snape’s lesson and the boggart turning into the Moon were also big, but the names Sirius and Remus are huge, to me. Again, I apologize to Goathair if I was too harsh.
i guess i don’t know my roman history/mythology because i never really connected that one.
and now i understand the crest of the AS Roma soccer club and all of those similar pictures from my trips to Rome as a youngster.
TFA: there are a lot of things to be found in the names JKR chose for people, places, spells, etc. It’d be an interesting thing to research.
LA: yeah, i have seen other ones. will you write up a memo on that and get back to me? 🙂
NOT FUNNY, FAN’S ATTIC! I’ve got memos coming out of my ass.
i guessed as much. on your suggestion i started looking up some of the names and Regulus is latin for Prince or Little King. Interesting, although Snape is the “Half-Blood Prince”, or so he proclaims in the HBP.
also to touch on my earlier comments about Mama Black, it appears she died in 1985. this is based on my research on the web from a family tree JKR published. i couldn’t find the passage i referred to, although, i admit i didn’t look very hard. the internet is much easier to find this stuff.
this would be after sirius had gone to azkaban and regulus had died.
The name Remus might give away the secret of Lupin to the_bad_one. It is pretty clear in hindsight.
or foresight I guess
Hail Leroy–yes on the Syndrome monologuing. I love that scene. As far as the “dread” in PoA, it’s an eerie book right until the Shack–then it opens up the far deeper wounds of revenge that lead into the graveyard scene in GoF and beyond. That’s the real issue in Harry’s life–if he kills LV, has he become simply a vengeful fool–he will have to live with using the AV curse or whatever he has to do to kill LV.
I wrote a whole section of my dissertation (DO NOT ask to me to post that!) about vengeance and what it means for good characters/people to pick up the instruments of violence (if you’re at all curious, the section is on Pynchon’s Mason & Dixon and what it means for Jeremiah Dixon, raised a Quaker and pacifist, to assault and whip a slave-driver in colonial Baltimore). If Harry successfully uses an unforgivable curse (not much has been made of his attempt to use the Crucio on Bellatrix) to kill LV, what does that mean for his soul/conscience? Is such violence acceptable when used up such horrible people as a slaver (in Dixon’s case) or LV (in Harry’s)?
We know that JKR has written about how much damage the murder of a human being does to ones soul. That is part of the magic behind the Horcrux, and why it is so horrible. So do any of us really think that Harry has it in him? To kill another person, be it LV or otherwise. I know that it is diffrent, but Harry couldn’t even let Sirius and Lupin kill Wormtail(whether they would have actually been able to go through with it is an entirely diffrent matter INMO) and Wormtail is just as guilty as LV for the death of Harry’s parents. LV may have pulled the trigger, per say, but Wormtail gave him the gun.
I agree with the general sentiment that PoA is a turning point in the series, it does get much darker. The first two book everything was new and happy and cool. The third book is where the back story of Harry’s parents being killed by LV and him surviving really begin to take a hold in the story. I think it also when LV decides that it is he that must kill Harry. I think before, which is made evident in PS/SS by Quirrell trying to kill Harry during the quidditch match and is CoS when Riddle just sicks the Basalisk on him, LV would have been fine with someone else killing Harry, but after PoA or maybe the end of CoS LV decides to kill him himself.
Also, at the risk of looking like an idiot, i didn’t figure out the werewolf thing the first time i read PoA until it was pretty much spelled out for me. Atleast thats what i remember, granted its been years since i read it the first time.
Again, at the risk of looking like an idiot, what is the significance of Sirius’ name? Remus i get, Sirius…not so much.
And, is Regalus Black burned off the family tree in the Black household? I don’t remember off the top of my head.
Sirius is the dog star. It’s connected to Orion in the myths. it’s also the brightest star in the sky.
Regulus is still on the Black family tree.
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